English 182 - Paul Martin


Green Grass, Running Water discussion (2008) (posted 17 April 2008)

Looking back at Green Grass, Running Water, it is safe to say that it is unlike any book we've read on this course. And yet, it also has some key similarities to the others. How would you describe this book in comparison to the others? What are some of the most significant differences and parallels with the other books? What do you think King's objectives were in writing this novel?

Comments

Green Grass Running Water is definitely more light hearted and upbeat in comparison to the other books we have read this semester. There are also a lot more story lines to keep track of and the story line is not as linear as some of the others. Although there is not much sibling comparison, there is a lot of comparisons between family members and people within the Native community (for example Eli and Lionel). Another parallel between GGRW and the other books is definitely the train of thought that the Native characters exhibit in contrast with non-Native characters. They are never fully focused on the subject at hand; many are off in their own worlds, lost in their own thoughts.

I think King wanted the reader to really understand more of where Native story telling comes from. His use of The four old Indians and Coyote seems random at first, but after a while it becomes easier to comprehend and tie together the Indians with the background stories they retell. King gives the book a more complex storyline, but it helps to convey the feel of the Native culture.

Posted by: Becky at April 17, 2008 5:47 PM

This book was very different then the other books. The way that it bounced between the four Indians and their versions of the creation story was the most interesting way to link the different lives of the characters in this novel. The four different creation stories did get a little confusing to separate at times however.

I think that the biggest similarity Green Grass, Running Water had to the other class readings was the struggling relationships between siblings. This novel had the struggling relationships for the siblings and for the son to his mother and father. Each novel so far has the struggling family dynamic.

The biggest difference is the tone of the novel. Green Grass, Running Water was not as depressing as some of the other novels (with their rape and suicide and such). This novel's tone was mirrored in the attitudes of the four indians: they were very positive. Their only goal was to help rescue and save.

I think King's objective to writing this novel was to show that Indian's pasts are not all depressing. Many novels written about Indian families focus on all the hardships that they endure. I think King wanted to show a different side of the story.

Posted by: Carolyn at April 18, 2008 11:00 PM

Green Grass, Running Water is extremely different from the other novels we have read in this class because of the way it is written. It starts out scattered then builds into a masterpiece as the stories begin to blend into one. I think that is the key difference with this novel compared to the others because the other books have a clear story from the beginning.
Finding parallels is not difficult because most of the characters have the same struggles as characters in other books we read. It's just a bit deceiving because the way the story is written seems so complex at first. For instance, a parallel would be how one of the characters played more of a white role and the struggle to accept his family and his culture.
I think King's objective in writing this was to show the reader how important stories are in our lives. That in the end it all comes together and makes sense. I think he was showing us the importance in the way we tell stories.

Posted by: Danielle at April 20, 2008 8:40 AM

Green Grass, Running Water has a very different pattern than any other book we have read this semester. All of the other books had a linear pattern, whereas this novel jumped around between different plots. I think that King wanted to set up the stories like this because he wanted to relay the significance of oral storytelling with a written collection. In my opinion the characters were more comical and the subject matter not quite as deep as the other books.


There were also plenty of similarities with the other books we have read so far- the presence of mysticism, Native and modern cultures clashing, Native characters struggling with their own identity and a heavy focus on the importance of storytelling. King still touched on most of the relevant topics facing Native people, but did so in a different way.


In comparison with the other books I would describe GGRW as a collection of related stories that help one understand the importance of oral tradition, whereas the others are mostly linear stories that only convey the aspects of Native culture that are easier to write about.

Posted by: Matt at April 20, 2008 11:45 AM

Green Grass, Running Water is by far one of my favorite books now. The way in which King combines the tradition of oral storytelling and the novel is remarkable. It is so different than any of the other books we have read this semester and seems to stand on its own from them. The use of four narrators (and coyote) is really wonderful, since each ahs such a distinct voice. Also I love that throughout the book we get continually told about how important it is to tell stories accurately. Coyote is such an amazing character and we really get the sense of native stories through his existence in this novel. I also love that King chose to use the names of white figures in our literary history as his four narrators. But it is Kings ability to keep the storyline tied together through this different medium that is by far the most interesting part of the novel. It is so different and fresh that, while being hard to get use to, keeps that reader interested and involved in what he is telling us.

Posted by: Joe Castano at April 21, 2008 10:42 AM

King's novel is much more intentional than the others. That is, he is almost blunt in his symbolic gestures; his allusions and historical references are clearly drawn. This not to say that the novel is simple, plain or less enjoyable; in fact, it is beyond question my favorite from this course. King's strategy is to challenge our perceptions of his references - is what we learned about the Nina, Pinta and Santa Marie or the Lone Ranger an accurate understanding of history? Every reference is connected to clashes between Native and white culture and these stories are most often taught to us as favorable to a white perspective or as flat our lies that deny an honorable Native history. By turning these conventions on their heads, King makes us question what we think we know (the Nissan, Pinto and Karmann-Ghia figuratively destroy the dam that stands between native tradition and white progress, killing Eli in the process). His objective can be said to be similar to the other novelists in that they are all, on some level, about correcting or informing the reader's perceptions of history, but to me, King is much more daring in his very obvious use of the stories we think we know so well and hold dear to our understanding of our own pasts.

Posted by: Seth at April 21, 2008 12:45 PM

In comparison to all of the other books we’ve read, I’d say that Green Grass Running Water does, in fact, fit into a category of its own. The way Thomas King weaves the story lines of all the characters together in such a way that they all play out in the end is amazing, and a feat in itself. In general, I’d say that King’s aim with this novel was didactic, but nonetheless very successful because of the way he is able to intersperse humor and morals. By didactic, I mean to teach a moral lesson, and not didactic in the sense that King was pedantic or obsessive over small details. Instead, I thought King did an excellent job of parodying and subverting traditional narrative ideology through the use of a framing narrative (story within a story). Just one of Kings humor-infused narrative devices was his use of prominent white Western figures and their Native American sidekicks like, Lone Ranger and Tonto, for instance. King’s use of extensive intertextual references is definitely one of the intricacies that set this novel apart from the other novels we’ve read.


Like many of the other books we’ve read, Green Grass Running Water places strong emphasis on actually telling a story. In that sense it relates back to King’s other work, The Truth About Stories insofar as King’s notion that the stories we tell shape the world. This is evident on p. 432 when Storyteller says, “There are no truths, only stories.” Once I stopped looking at this as a novel and more as a story, everything made much more sense to me.

When I first started reading GGRW I had a hard time keeping up with the different characters and storylines, but after reading more closely and adjusting to King’s style, I found this novel extremely enjoyable. It may seem cliché, but I really enjoyed the symbolism exhibited in the scene on p. 426 when Lionel hands his jacket back to George and is again realigned with his native culture.

Posted by: Nate G. at April 21, 2008 7:39 PM

Green Grass Running Water was a very different book. Stylistically it started off at a point that I was unfamiliar with, and you almost had to get halfway through the book, possibly go back at parts, to truly understand what was going on. I thought it was interesting how there seemed to be a type of build up. At first we got blips from certain stories, especially the creation stories of the 4 Indians and then the stories began to grow, and the stories of the different people began to grow and we as readers began to know more about the people and we began to see the connections involved in each story. I thought that this book was a lot like Monkey Beach in the way Robinson weaved her story together by using flashbacks, which was similar to the back and forth tellings of the stories in GGRW. I had an extremely hard time getting into the rhythm of GGRW though and where as in Monkey Beach I was able to pick it up almost immediately and go right along with it. I definitely think that King wanted to show us the oral tradition of telling stories. I think that many of us today are too impatient to wait for our elders to tell us stories, but telling stories for Native people is a tradition that they look forward to because they value what the elders have to say. I think that King really wanted to show us that we must be patient for the whole story.

Posted by: Lauren at April 24, 2008 12:26 AM

Green Grass, Running Water is very different from all the other books we read. I think one key difference is that the book requires a lot of attention because it is scattered, but eventually all comes together into one piece. However, although it is very different, I found the characters to have a lot of the same struggles as many of the other characters in other books we have read. There is still the struggle of being a victim of the typical stereotype and the struggle between the white culture and the Native culture. This book contains a lot of stories going on at once, and does not follow one single story, like the other novels we have read. I think King's objective in the novel was not only to show us the worldly view from the Native standpoint, but also to make us see how closely things are related and how they come together. King allows us to look at the Native past and present from our own view, and then from the Native's perspective--giving us a new standpoint on their culture and world.

Posted by: Liz at April 25, 2008 12:43 PM

Green Grass Running Water is initially a much more vague and confusing novel but turns into a simple yet complex story that I think actually says more than any of the other novels in terms of the lives of first nation people. Similar to a few of the other books that we have read, GGRW focuses on the trials of whites and first nations' living next door to one another. I think that King's objective was to write a novel such that he can get his point across without muddling it up with unnecessary words. He demonstrates very strongly the importance of incorporating your background with a westernized way of life.

Posted by: Megan at April 29, 2008 4:03 PM

In Thomas King's The Truth About Stories, he said that are all that we are. His book Green Grass, Running Water really emphasizes this point. The whole novel is wrapped up in the telling of the story of what things are and how things came to be. This novel also calls to mind what King had written in The Truth About Stories about real vs. fake indians. Green Grass Running Water is about indians living in the modern world struggling with their native identities. The lives of the characters in this book hold many similarities to the characters in the all the other books we have read. I enjoyed this book mostly because it was both comical and poignant. King has a knack of being able to pair these two contrasting feelings and his wit seems to translate into wisdom in this novel.

Posted by: Caitlin Mulvey [TypeKey Profile Page] at April 30, 2008 12:49 PM

Green Grass, Running Water and all of Thomas King's books and stories we've read are very different from not only what we've read in this class but are very different, I think, in the world of literature. Thomas King's style is all about the intricacies and delicacies of telling a story and how the story is told. When reading his works, I feel like every little bit serves a purpose and has meaning which is of course what all writers want but Thomas King achieves this in a very individualistic, unique way. King's focus on the narrators and storytelling allow for divergent chapters however, he is able to pull everything together for one final conclusion. Green Grass, Running Water is funny and clever and more uplifting than other books we've read this semester without losing its power and meaning.

Posted by: Caroline P. at May 4, 2008 5:07 PM

I found “Green Grass Running Water” to be one of the least favorite books we have read this semester. In the book it had one main storyline, but it felt like it jumped around a lot. It was hard to follow and took me the longest to finish. I didn’t like the four Indian narrators because it was confusing which one was speaking, because they kept interrupting each other and changing stories. Even thought I didn’t like the way the book was set up, I appreciated the upbeat and bright theme, unlike some of the other book. What this book had in common with the others was the relationship between siblings and the problems within the families.

Posted by: Laura at May 4, 2008 6:10 PM

While Green Grass, Running Water contains many of the characteristics that we attribute to First Nations writing, the complex and circular structure that Thomas King uses to tell the story illustrates his objective to point out and challenge cultural assumptions. Similar to other novels that we’ve read, this one has a didactic aim; however, by using four different plots that are intertwined, King not only shows that people and ideas are connected to one another, but also how those associations influence one’s identity. This component gives the novel an oral quality that stands out and aids King in demonstrating that traditional stories have a truth and timelessness about them, which enables them to incorporate modern objects and perceptions. Consequently (and similar to other novels), he shows the collision between First Nation traditional culture and the dominant ideology; yet, he does this through his use of intertextuality, a technique that we have not really seen in other novels. By referring to some of the dominant culture’s famous novels that depict First Americans as well as including historical figures in his text, King asks us to question not only stereotypes, particularly the “imagined Indian,” but also our history.

Posted by: Nichole at May 5, 2008 4:36 PM

Green Grass Running Water was undoubtedly unlike any other book we read this semester, however it still examined many of the same themes that all of the other stories did. These themes include: understanding what it means to be first nations, family, heritage, and separation between whites and natives. This book definitely goes along with King's other book The Truth About Stories. The whole underlying story of Coyote, Robinson Crusoe, Changing woman, and the others reminded me of the begging of every chapter of The Truth About Stories. Although each of those were creation stories, these were too. They were always about beginning.

I enjoyed that not every problem in the story was resolved. King combined that sort of mystical heritage with reality and intertwined the two flawlessly. Even though it was confusing at parts, it was one of the best books we read all semester.

Posted by: jay r at May 5, 2008 10:17 PM

Green Grass Running Water skips around much more than the rest of the books we have read in the class. It has four different Indians telling a story in four parts compared to one straight flowing story like the rest of the novels.

Some of the differences in the novels where the characters and how lighthearted they are and act. For example the coyote and how innocent he actually seems because he doesn't act very smart. Or having characters that are well know like hawk eye, Robinson Caruso, and Ishmael.

Some of the similarities are as in every book we have read this semester is the struggle within the families we read about. Whether it be the siblings or the adults in the novel.

I feel like King's intention in this book was to once again show the significance of storytelling. That you can tell a story and make it you own as he showed with the four diff characters.

Posted by: Eric at May 7, 2008 1:52 PM

GGRW is very different from any other book we have looked at this semester. It did however follow many of the other themes seen in other books. One difference was the structure of the story. It is not told by one individual, rather four. The structure is I
The Lone Ranger (Tonto)
First Woman- connected to the first woman of turtle island (Seneca)
East
Red
II
Ishmael (Queequeg)
Changing Woman- Navajo
South
White
III
Robison Crusoe (Friday)
Thought Woman- Navajo creates the world by thinking it into existence
West
Black
IV
Hawkeye: real name: Nathaniel B ( Chingachook)
Old Woman- Helper figure
North
Blue
Some similarities would be native culture, white culture and the differences between the two. Everything is about the beginning of creation. Someone is tempted toward white culture. This is seen on page 36 when Norma says, you wanted to be a white man to Lionel things that are demeaning make him feel like less of a native. This is a common theme in the stories where one individual feels less native. By using non native first Americans it leads of to question stereotypes. It was one of the most confusing books we read this semester, but that is what made it enjoyable. I like how we read Truth About Stories first because after reading this we are able to understand King’s writing in this novel.

Posted by: Justin at May 8, 2008 11:23 AM

Green Grass Running Water is different than the other books we have read, because it has a non linear pattern. The book is divided into sections rather than paragraphs, and it is also a much more light hearted book compared to the others we have read. It feels like King is just writing in order for his story to be heard. Sometimes this gets annoying, because you feel liek he is rambling on, however overall, I enjoyed the book, because it made sense even though it was confusing. Another key difference is that the book doesn't concentrate on sibling rivalries, rather it takes alook at tradition and family. It is also a very lengthy novel compared to the others, but in the end all the characters come together, and it is a beautifully written book. King wants us to remember the importance story sharing, rather than writing a proper novel.

Posted by: Lejla at May 8, 2008 2:56 PM

This book was quite different stylistically from the other books we've read during this course. Instead of a central character with a single narrator we have many different characters with stories that intersect one another. There is also the presence of mythological characters interacting with the "real world" characters- not in any dream sequence or vision but in the same reals as all the other characters interact in. This book was also more lighthearted that most of the books we've read, perhaps because this book was not written as a biography. Finally, I think this book was much more overt with its political allusions and its statement.

King seems to have wanted to comment on the ways whites and natives see history differently, and how our past myths and what we consider to be historical fact inform our decisions in the present.

Posted by: Megan H. at May 8, 2008 2:59 PM

Green Grass is simultaneously different and similar when compared to the rest of the novels that we have read this year. On the surface level, the plot bears many striking similarities with other works, things like sibling relationships, Indian rights, stereotypes, discrimination and the desecration of nature pop up again and again. However, that is where the similarities seem to end.

The other novels at least had some sort of time line and cohesive plot structure. King instead uses four separate narrators, four separate personalities to tell the stories, and in addition there are four different and contrasting stories being told. This kind of disjointed writing is difficult to follow, it involves an incredibly engaged reader, a reader who has a keen command of the previous sections and plot developments of the novel. While this does present a problem for many readers, it also has the distinct and unique advantage of covering a much wider scope of issues. It would be impossible to deal with all of the things mentioned and struggled with in the novel with a single main character, it would not have made sense and would have detracted from the overall meaning of the novel. Four characters allows the author to create and interweave four different stories from four different perspectives, giving the reader an exponentially greater experience than would otherwise be available.

Posted by: Wes Roon at May 8, 2008 3:53 PM

In comparison to the other books that we have read this semester, GGRW is different because it is not written in a Linear fashion. The novel is separated into four parts, with found distinct narrators. The Narrators are all named after English literary figures, which in and of itself displays a close parallel between the two English and Native cultures. By having these white literary characters act as the narrators, King expresses the importance storytelling holds for both Whites and Natives.

The Novel includes several of the same themes we have seen included in the other books, such as a clashing of civilizations, the inclusions of mystical elements, the feeling of being a 'bad Indian,' and the comparison between modern and traditional life.

All and all the story was difficult to understand, difficult to read, but easy to learn from. GGRW wss King's depiction of an oral story written on paper. He includes Indian humor, everyday dialog between the narrators, and an overall feeling like the reader is jumping around, almost as if he was there listening to four excited storytellers all trying to tell him their best story. The thoughs go off on tangents and come back again to tie together at the end.

King expresses the importance of presenting oral stories correctly, as can be seen in the first few pages when the narrator has a difficult time retelling the beginning of his story in a way that pleases the others. In regards to 'The Truth About Stories 'GGRW shows how stories can be told hundreds of different ways, and each time the narrator adds a little element of themselves to it. Through the four different narrators, this inclusion of self within the stories is prevalent and important. King essentially attempts to express the importance of oral storytelling through his novel.

Posted by: Dan Katz at May 9, 2008 4:19 AM

I think it's definitely safe to say that Green Grass Running Water is unlike any other book that we ready. While reading The Truth About Stories gave us a little insight into the way that Thomas King likes to write (as if the story is being spoken orally) it is still really different from what we see of him in that book. The book that I would compare this to is either Monkey Beach or Kiss of the Fur Queen because all three of those books incorporate some sort of enigmatic energy in their efforts. While Monkey Beach has mythological creatures like the B'gwus or the little red man, the way that Kiss of the Fur Queen is written, to me, felt a lot like Green Grass Running Water because the words felt like such a heavy natice tongue in terms of oral story telling.

I think that King's objectives in writing this novel was to really take hold of the idea of making a story sound like it is being told out loud and in this case, by multiple people. I also think that he wanted to make a point to show that one whole story (the story of Coyote and the water) could also be a part of so many other stories. As we learned in his Truth About Stories, he really believes that and I think that he proves it possible in Green Grass Running Water. That's what I liked most about this book. It made it very entertaining to read as something fresh and new from what I am used to and King's humor was also enjoyable.

Posted by: Tabitha at May 9, 2008 2:58 PM

I think it is safe to say that this book is like no others that we have read, but at the same time it is very similar to others that we have read. The way in which it is told is what makes it different, but the message in which it sends is what makes is similar. The characters bicker over the right way of telling the story and where the beginning starts. It shows high importance of story telling and that by missing or adding any detail, no matter how minute, that detail can change the story completely. It is clear, through this, that King is showing the reader the importance of story telling, especially with in the native culture.

Posted by: Emily at May 9, 2008 9:53 PM

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